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Ulster nationalism and Britishness
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| JohnP | Date: Monday, 2014-05-26, 9:23 AM | Message # 1 |
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| In recent times, I've become more aware of the Ulster nationalist movement within the PUL world, emphasising as it does the Ulster-Scots culture, and the historic integrity of Ulster as a distinct political entity.
It's an interesting idea, and something that I never really considered previously. I suppose because of my mixed Scottish/Ulster roots, I always opted for a wider British identity, rather than focusing on Ulster or Scotland in particular.
Could somebody tell me what the Ulster nationalist view on things like Britishness is? Do they consider themselves purely as Ulsterfolk, or as Ulsterfolk and British? Do all Ulster nationalists want independence from the UK, as the Ulster Nation site seems to call for?
Personally, I have my own way of reconciling Ulster's distinctiveness within the modern UK - rather than viewing Ulster as a historically distinct nation from the rest of the UK, I tend to consider the from of Britishness that exists in Ulster today (Protestantism, monarchy etc) as a true continuation of a once UK-wide historic Britishness, while the rest of the UK has become corrupted by various trends that have polluted their concept of Britishness (things like multiculturalism, secularism, etc).
I think this is an interesting topic to discuss and would be interested in getting to know a bit more about the Ulster nationalist position.
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| Culzie | Date: Monday, 2014-05-26, 4:17 PM | Message # 2 |
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| I think David Kerr would be the man to answer those points you have made. Speaking personally I believe in a strong Ulster (Ullish) identity within the UK.
Its 'funny' this has come up as I have been thinking about it myself and am involved on a Facebook page in a similar discussion. This is a point I was going to raise on that page. How do the loyalist people of Ulster see themselves? Are they after 400 years still colonists holding the 'fort' for England/Britain? I think this is a very important question that has to be decided upon. If we are colonists has Gerry Adams not a point when he says the British presence is the cause of the problem. Talking to a workmate one time he said '' if Britain is not here then neither am I, I'm off ''. If that is the case with unionists in general then Adams is correct in his analysis of the situation ?
On the other hand if we are the indigenous people of Ulster we have the right to our own corner of this island. The Celts have always been land-grabbers even when they were in Europe. That was until those other land-grabbers the Romans saw them off. If we have an allegiance to Ulster is this not the way to hold Ulster, by having the British connection? Basically, that's how I see it at the moment.
Ulster Protestants consider themselves to be a separate nation. This nation they call Ulster
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| JohnP | Date: Monday, 2014-05-26, 5:39 PM | Message # 3 |
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| Yeah, as you note with the Gerry Adams point, I think it is very problematic for us to view ourselves as colonists. I've developed couple of opposing thoughts on this matter over time:
1. The Protestant people were colonists, however they were the dominant people of Ulster come the nation-building period of early modern history. Thus, despite not being native to the region, the natives themselves at this time had no real concept of nationhood. Although the native Irish had kings and over-kings, they lived in a mixed feudal-tribal system, and were not a nation as such. Ulster on the other hand was cemented as part of the British nation through the creation of national institutions and a British national identity, which was expressed through a British Parliament, nationwide taxation, nationwide policy, and all the rest that comes with a modern nation state. Thus, although the British were not the first people in Ulster, they were the first nation, and thus have a legitimate claim to nationhood in the area.
2. The Protestant people of Ulster were not colonists, and in fact can claim a much more ancient historic identity. This is rooted both in Ulster's historic distinctiveness from Ireland, and its interconnectedness with the British mainland. This is demonstrated by Ptolemy's ancient map which shows the Cruithin as a Pictish tribe, the Ulster-Scottish Kingdom of Dalriada, the settlement and intermarriage of Scottish Galloglaich mercenaries from the early medieval period, the old Scottish clans of Ulster such as the MacDonnells of Antrim that predate the plantations, etc.
Nowadays I go very much with the latter opinion, since I think it is essential for nationhood to have deep and meaningful roots, rather than viewing it as an artificial creation. This way, it becomes something permanent and indeed inherent in the social order (and arguably, by extension, our very nature), rather than something fleeting, or brought about by circumstance.
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| Culzie | Date: Tuesday, 2014-05-27, 7:59 PM | Message # 4 |
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| Steve Bruce of Aberdeen University said he was surprised by the response of people who were asked about their loyalty to Ulster or to Downing St. 60% of middle-class Protestants said their first loyalty was to Ulster. The working-class were even more sure where their loyalty lay and 80% put loyalty to Ulster first. This thinking would have to be changed and this started to take off in the 90s after the signing of the BA (though it was being worked on by the social engineers before that). So we saw the OO and bands becoming involved in Patrick Day parades, and the title Northern Irishman replacing Ulsterman. This was all followed by the introduction of gaelic games, dancing and language.
Yes there was no real kingdom as we understand the word today. There were 'fines' and 'tuaths' which warred against each other from time to time. However, we must remember that there was a King of Ulster and the Royal Seat at Navan Fort. Some say that our present Queen is linked to the ancient kings of Ulster, and when the Queen visited Ulster in the 1950s she was presented with a book detailing the links.
I was brought up with a strong sense of Britishness and to this day I will always support the British in sport, whether they be Scots, English or Welsh. Its simple for me...I always support the British, but some loyalist unionists I have noticed do not, and cheer on the Eire teams when they play England. Having said all that I have not the same loyalty I once had, thanks to our Downing St masters. My first loyalty is to my homeland which is Ulster.
Ulster Protestants consider themselves to be a separate nation. This nation they call Ulster
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| JohnP | Date: Tuesday, 2014-05-27, 10:02 PM | Message # 5 |
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| Yeah, I think that disenchantment with Westminster and indeed the attitude of the rest of the rest of the UK to Ulster would explain why the PUL community identifies first and foremost with Ulster. I think there are a couple of distinctions to consider here though...
Firstly, loyalty to a nation is very different from loyalty to that nation's government. I in no way support what the British government has in recent decades done in Ulster, yet I support the more abstract concept of British nationhood. I expect that most that gave Steve Bruce those answers would also give their national identity as British before anything else.
Secondly, I think we have to ask if Ulster's cultural distinctiveness from the rest of the UK is because it is a distinct nation from the rest of the UK, or if it in fact is a more pure preservation of Britishness that has degenerated in the rest of the UK. traditional Ulster Loyalism is for me the purest expression of true historic Britishness, and it is not something I think that should be relegated to Ulster. It is just as valid in Scotland and indeed England.
Thirdly, a word of warning from Scotland's experience - if you legitimize regional identities and regional institutions as national identities, then you damage national identity and national institutions, and may eventually erode them enough that they disappear in place of regional ones altogether. This is what has happened in Scotland. Devolution legitimised Scottish claims to nationhood, peoples identification with Britain has rapidly decline since devolution, and now we are facing an 'independence' referendum.
This is a very interesting topic I have to say!
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| Culzie | Date: Wednesday, 2014-05-28, 1:11 PM | Message # 6 |
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| I agree to a point, especially with your last few lines. Yes indeed this has happened in Scotland and it is for that very reason that the people of Ulster have to have that alternative choice rather than be absorbed into an all Ireland I am not for Scottish independence, but we have got to recognise that the world has changed and that the rise of independent countries (some with a minute population) is a fact of life. Looking at it in a roundabout way, what worked for Scottish nationalism could work for Ulster,ie to be seen as a distinct and separate country from Ireland. Another point is that Scotland didn't have the same problem that Ulster has, another country which laid claim to them and used force to back up this claim.
I agree that most Protestants see themselves as being British first, but they also have a strong allegiance to Ulster. Of course all this might never have arisen if we had a government which supported the loyal people of Ulster, but this has never been the case, except perhaps for Stanley Baldwin. There is an ongoing programme of the Irishisation of Ulster and at the same time a weakening of links with Britain. I don't think you can separate the loyalty to Britain and the behaviour of successive British governments. It is how governments behave which decides how we live and our future.
While not having a great knowledge or understanding of Russia and Putin I do admire how he stood by his people in the Ukraine. I also admired the actions of Turkey when they dropped their troops into Cyprus and defended their people there. We as a people have never had this treatment by our own government. In fact when troops did come to Ulster they hammered the Protestants. So we can't look to Britain for support and saying that I recognise those people in England, Scotland and Wales who are supportive of the loyal people of Ulster, but they can't do anything about our situation. That role is filled by governments and none of them (with exception of Baldwin) have been on the side of loyalists here. In fact the opposite is the case they are working to deliver us into a united Ireland.
Ulster Protestants consider themselves to be a separate nation. This nation they call Ulster
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